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Unknown Speaker 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the building an indie business podcast with supreme ROM ham. I'm your host, Alex Edmonds. Today is a very special episode. I am interviewing someone for the open podcast community podcast. I'm interviewing Brendon Weinstein. This is the first interview that I've ever done. And it is an example of why I don't do interviews, because it took us like half an hour to figure out how to record the audio and have the video as an aside. So we started out with, I think it was, Oh, it was zoom. And then we couldn't figure that out. So I went to Google Hangouts. And then we couldn't figure that out, specifically, how I can record the audio on both sides. That would that's what we were trying to figure out. And then what else And Alright, so then we went to Skype. And we didn't figure out how to get Skype working. Like, I tried to capture the audio in Audacity at the same time and we couldn't figure that one out. So then finally, he goes, wait, isn't there like a tool that we can use for podcasting specifically? And I go, Oh, yeah, Zen caster. And so we use Zen caster to record. This is after like, probably an hour and a half of trying to figure this out. Maybe 30 minutes because we spent like the first hour really talking. But yeah, it was it was brutal. And then I yeah, it was so awkward for me. I was really nervous. You can hear it in my voice at the very beginning. So I was talking like this to him. And as soon as I hit the record button, I get this radio voice it didn't even sound like this. It'll sound very weird. It's not like how I do the intro for open or for this podcast. It's not like, Hey, how you doing? It was like a real radio voice and I was like using radio phrases I wasn't casual. So I turned my nervousness into like, an actual interview, which I never want to sound like an interview because I'm not an interview guy. I'm a podcast guy. I'm very casual. So yeah. So heads up. If you want to do an interview podcast, use Zen caster. And then if you want to have like a video aspect, you Skype. So our setup was the audio was going through Zen caster, and the video was doing was on Skype. So yeah, and then when you're done with the Zen caster part, do they have you download it and it's two separate files, and then you have to merge the files. together in Audacity, it's very simple. I could put the video that I use in the show notes. Um, yeah. And I, I will be doing a episode on how to interview someone, either next week or the week after that. I have an interesting project that I want to talk about. And I'm, I'm in the middle of it. But by the time this comes out, and I have the next episode to record on, it'll be done with and I, what I really how I do my podcast process is I need to like, have my notes done. And for interviewing, I almost have them done, but I might want to do my experiment first because I just want to get it out of my mind while it's fresh. And that way I can give the best details even though I have notes but like, my notes are it's one thing it'll be like You the benefits of interviewing are, you don't have to do much talking and then I have an idea of what I'm going to say. And so if I do that, the episode too late, I'm going to forget what I wanted to say. Unknown Speaker 4:15 Well, okay, um, that's it. Unknown Speaker 4:19 Enjoy the episode. Have a nice day. Bye. Unknown Speaker 4:24 Hello, and welcome to the Unknown Speaker 4:26 open podcast community podcast. This is episode number two. And the guest is Brendon Weinstein. And we will be going through his background and what he's working on right now. Unknown Speaker 4:40 Welcome, Brennan. Unknown Speaker 4:42 Thank you for having me. I'm excited. It's the first time we've been a part of any of the open podcasts. So it sounds like a great idea. I love moving to get there you guys. Unknown Speaker 4:52 Alright, so why don't you tell us about yourself, your background and how you got here. Unknown Speaker 5:00 Okay, so I think traditionally, the traditional maker or you know, I'd say bootstrap indie maker, I have a little bit of a different backstory. Mine kind of came from realizing that the side of entrepreneurial ism and, and venture capital wasn't really where I wanted to go with a product that I hadn't been able to build in full on my own. So that thinks back to about 2013. I'm a junior in college. And just like any other, you know, 21 year old seeking extra money or you're on campus, trying to be, you know, entrepreneurial, and my partner, Doug and I decided we had this little watch business in which interchangeable colored watches could be sold and change colors. When we were in college. This seems like a hit Like, I go to Indiana. He goes to Syracuse. We're playing each other in sports, everyone decked out in colors. To watch to import was, you know, pennies on the dollar, be selling it for a few bucks. But instantly we learned like that was what's driving us here was business that that was more fun than even having gone to the game. I mean, that was like the early tests that tells telltale signs for me was I didn't want to go at night to the airport. I was like, I want to cope, you know, figure out how we're going to plan to what to do next. So from there, the next plan was to realize we're on a campus, we have a very strong network between us, right? I'm studying business at Indiana University at this point. He's studying business at Syracuse, where those two networks and in areas being one in the Midwest, one on the East Coast, getting this great distribution. So we're going to reach a ton of students we're going to give you know get them some watches, whatever the product may be in their hands and run an affiliate you know reach referral marketing engine, right give me give A commission sell watches that are blue and white. If you go to North Carolina, sell watches that are red and white. If you go to Indiana, a few bucks a pop, it didn't matter what the price was, we got to get our names out there it is a matter of three months. The view of what we were as, as professionals was, he's a graduating collegiate, or he's in establishing he's an emerging entrepreneur, right? We weren't doing anything special. We were the mindset of wanting to create something. Right? I stay with that today. The manner in which I went to create something, I do have some regrets on. Not regrets that I would, you know, regret about myself and Brexit I hindsight 2020 I would have done them differently. When I first started that company, the only thing you did and what we learned was going to raise up $250,000 seed or series A right The goal is to get into Y Combinator, something along those lines. So we sit down to draw business models, we're going to build a referral engine, for one reason not to just generate viral traffic at all. We're going to do it from the opposite side. I was a college student, with friends and the most connected on their phones, their computers learning in a learning environment on the computer that could not manage to create one formal channel of communication for our student ambassadors to sell these watches communicate with us and submit work we wanted them to do, right. It was like, it seems a logical to us. I know that these enterprise level organizations can, but who's doing that for $2 items, right and who set that up yet? You couldn't shop and buy something on Wix without a business account yet, right or, or Shopify? So we were like, you know what we're going to do. We think that this can't be the only audience. The only A demographic that suffering from this those who kind of want to sell something little, how many people can't find a platform to communicate with? And only with those that are on collegiate campuses across the nation? Very, very few can. Right? Most things are built directly through the LMS learning management tool. Unknown Speaker 9:20 Right? What year was this? This was in Unknown Speaker 9:22 2013. So I was Yes, I am 11 I graduated high school. So I'm 27 years old. At that time, I was 20. I was Yes, I was 21 by time that I had finished up, like union all of the building out of the business plans and everything I remember celebrating birthday, do 21st maybe not remember who it was good time. So we, uh, yeah, we were about 2120 and 21, our third co founder at this point, and we're deciding on whether or not you know, we think that model we just built isn't Really actually relatable to an organization, maybe the size of, let's say Red Bull, because I think many of you who have been in college or in college know, you've seen those little red bow trucks driving around, giving away free Red Bull, right? Or a stand outside of a campus Hall, giving t shirts, maybe the economist, a bartender, noble, Sperry, those are three of our large clients during the times. We were fine with that. Right. And we were fine with that because our job was getting it was being accomplished now that we knew we had one communication channel, then businesses were able to create a profile that they wanted to offer opportunities to students or certain campus, students will be able to register for a profile like LinkedIn. Find those matching jobs to them on their campus, get paid to do short little gigs and manage it all in the same way they were managing their current coursework learning management tool. We were the first integration with Blackboard So then through their Blackboard LMS account, you can see your outside of coursework, your externship work, you had to accomplish the learning, development, career development, as well as the schools began to get relations with employer brands they didn't have before, because they were there to market. And now they were interested in the student. So tell me a lot about, you know, the different sides of the marketplace. But the thing that I could no longer handle in being there was, I did not know how to cope. I was not coding and I was not writing this. This, you mean, the corporate core product that we were going to be thriving, right? We're six months into a full public launch. I'm still managing a team of developers in the United States and overseas overseas, not outsource but support team, right. And I go to sit down for they what they tell me is now Product sprint, we're going to do a design sprint. My first reaction was to go y'all my partner, Doug, can you get a Greg, we need our designer, right? Little do I know like, that's how you run as a product manager sprint, releasing features. It's called design sprint. So they sat me down, I'm sitting there going, I can't not have a say in what I'm building. And I can't have to convince someone else to want to build what I want them to build, when I'm still giving them the money to build it, that it just became a frustrating factor beyond not being able to build it. But being feeling like I was the only reason that was true. I was telling myself, I couldn't tell you myself, you don't know how to code like they can you're never gonna be as good as them. He's a professional at that. Why don't you just let them do that? That's their job. Well, I've put together the framework and the idea that the model for this type of business, the business that that two months later went on to raise 300 $50,000 of a seed round, um, ended up raising close to like about a million dollars in total capital. I'm staying at five employees and post profitable toward throughout the entirety of the five years I was able to accomplish that yet I could not see anything else in myself being able to actually build this thing I wanted right I was gonna have to make enough money to buy a when that kind of happened is when I really started to look out elsewhere, find inspiration find other you know, technologists had always been a product hunter like that had always been sitting through, you know, it can be at that time. I think it was definitely product time. But there was even um, I was using beta page existed beta list existed, startup, there were there were countless of them. I would sit on forum boards and wait to someone probably posted new product. But I would look at them all and go I'm looking at this for who I think is clever enough to be the one that I want to pick to be my Unknown Speaker 14:04 that was, that was exactly where I didn't was that imposter syndrome. They mean you earlier, but but not right. Like, I'm not telling myself on bad. I'm just trying to be realistic to the point of like, I don't know that I will be enjoying myself going through another learning experience, that's a lot different than saying I can't. So I took a step back, I realize, if you want to learn this, you got to learn it. And it's gonna be you're on your own right, coding boot camps are there, I find that to still be on your own. But it was going to be something that I had to reach out to a community, right the guy I'm always getting need my own resources, not the education system, not my father even working in software engineering. They weren't involved with the way we're learning today. agile methodologies, right? Um, the world, the dev environments with serverless computing I'd send him a guide down ask him to start teaching me. He's a 25 year executive in technology. Yeah, no clue what one of the words I used were. When I said react. He said react to what? Right like, this is this is what I'm trying to learn from me. It's not him. It's our generation, the speed and the rapid release of new technologies. That's the reason I'm even in the position I'm in to begin with the speed of technology advancing so far, put marketplaces with social networks on the mat, which is where my thought of putting together job boards and students marketing on a campus. Right, here's all from mixtures of prior thoughts before and now I want to take that one step further and say that was my thought period. Now I'm going to build right so that's pretty much where University beyond was like, I would say four years in of it's five years ago. assistance. As you can see, I was kind of wanting desiring to be able to go out, create and build confidence myself, I've been spending a lot of time learning on different programming languages offline. I did take a general assembly course, I got a certificate in product management Park School. I wanted to know the ins and outs of being able to speak with an engineer, right? It's very, very difficult, like without understanding product management, well, to convince an engineer that he better finished this a week faster than he thinks is going to mean you know, zero about the languages he's writing. Right. So that to me felt like I got it better do that if I want to speak and in the room first. So when I when I got through with understanding how products were developed, managed, maintained, and that that role didn't need to be the core engineer. That's when I actually found myself able to succeed in learning how to code the best of the periods of my life. Is it No longer felt like it's either do this or die, right? Like, I've now decided to write code, I better get real good at, or can I use the fact that I'm evil to understand and build write applications on my own for my success as a product manager, where my interest and skill set to lie, to eat, etc. Like, that took a long time for me to realize, and I think that I didn't do enough reaching out to people, right until about a year ago, I would say, when people like us, like, you know, communities product I've been around and a member of for a little bit longer, but communities such as product schools, slack community, 35,000 plus product, you know, a enthusiasts, whether they be professors, their current PMS in Silicon Valley, giving us a nice every day and like realizing I now had a network I can tap it right community building became the next thing. And 2015 in 2016. Right, we started seeing communities pop up all over we see maker logs, indie hackers, right? We see communities designer on those, like I was finding myself falling into, which is the exact opposite of what I had seen myself, two and a half years earlier going in meeting with venture capitalists to raise funding, you know. So, I said, I went through a little bit, you know, a curvy path to try to find out that at the end of the day, I really just wanted to build something, which was the same thing that I started with. I just never got the confidence internally to say, I'm going to be able to make that so why don't I just tell myself right, whether or not it takes learn a lot to learn. Unknown Speaker 18:46 I I'm happy I did today I find I feel a lot confident about myself more common about myself. I work closely with some of the I mean, I my more most respected makers that are creating today, creating knowledge For the monetary value that they know that they can earn a salary at a certain organization, but because of the pride they take in their work, right, the ability to put out products in a manner and to those who which, in which they would like to, you know, empower. I think the women's movements, like are all phenomenal. I think that schools that are doing a lot for, Unknown Speaker 19:26 you know, need for students that that are from foreign countries or that are living in impoverished areas. There, there's a lot of movements that have been able to be built around the limits the breaking down of limitations of technology, right? You were stuck within elite, building, your delete wanted, we can all build things expand. So a lot more possibilities. So I was like, finally feeling at home, right? Like I don't need to be the best developer in the room. I can have this conversation with these three people. Maybe he's an engineer, maybe he's a designer. That's what products that's a product oriented, you know, folks do I want to just be a part of the product face. So I've now been, I would say, for a good year and a half since then the end of like 2017, early 2018. I've been steadily still practicing, you know, keeping my skills fresh. But I've taken a lot of side projects. I worked for about 1216 months. I'm leading the initial product development and data infrastructure configuration basically for a good eSports company called geyser. That was an interesting game. It was another great experience. I I definitely know now that like, just joining another group of people just because there's a group of people, it's not why you join a team. Right? join a team of people who are like minded want to build like things with you. That you enjoy being around, you're going to make way better products and you're going to be way more enjoy about your life's gonna be that much more enjoyable. You get to go home and not go back to work. But going to the same computer you were at work on doing the same thing. And now it's just for your enjoyment. Right. Makes work nothing. So I found that that the hard way i think i think that I fooled myself for a while into thinking I shouldn't even really try to like, oh, it seems like a four year college experience I was getting I was too behind the east and today with the amount of free resources online, I could not recommend it more to start at least your your understanding of technology, start building something. No code is a great way to start that you have an idea in your head, start making it put it together. Right. You had an idea you would have put it together in a flyer on Microsoft Word when you were in high school wouldn't have been there shy to do that. Now, granted, it's much worse than that. But on the grand scheme of things, we took it from my going to sit in a typewriter and actually go through the effort of like, you know, making that document? Or do I have to type a few letters into an, you know, Apple Notepad. And while I have it forever, writing, to me, that's the level of difference like one is just magic manual and like analog, right? And then one is to the to the layperson. And then one is a dashboard with widgets that you can drag and drop around, right? That person knows how to reorder this. They don't even know how to do to manually reconfigure things, right? We never learned the science behind computing. We just learned how to write the language bootcamps don't teach you why the computer's reacting to it to a certain script. It just teaches you that it does. So I think Alex, I think you know what my next step might be that I'm considering. Maybe spoke about it a little bit, but that's kind of a bit a little bit of a background on My kind of formal experience as well as personal thoughts on why and where I've come to, I'd like to inform us that I'm happy as ever. I'm, I'm at home in a community of people who root for me, right? Like, I know Alex does. I know I do for them. I know, this morning in Florida, you unbelievable conversation. And like, it's those little things that are coming from people who are not sitting there in your benefit. They're not, they don't work for you, right. It's that empowerment that I'm saying, made me so much more successful than the empowerment of going to college and being told because you have this should get that job. Right, having people be there for you. Really, really crucial. So I think that the difference maker for me became three years of confusion. In the last year I've been a part of communities. Things have started to clear up. You have resources. So hope you guys We're able to follow along that little windy, you know, brain and mind. But uh, Alex, I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up. I, I don't often go back into my past. Unknown Speaker 24:09 No problem. So you have University beyond geyser. What are you working on now? Unknown Speaker 24:17 I'm actually working on a couple things. So I the parent company in which I've owned University beyond like my shares protect rice while I was working on side gigs. It's an insight venture group. So here's my insight is that's what, that's what I'm interested in at the end of the day, right? I want to build applications so that I can see what data is being produced by the data in the end of the day. Is, is words, where people hear things hear sentences, like, I look at a screen and I'm looking at shapes and numbers for a pattern. Right like, that's the way my mind works. So I love visual designing, of course. But the end of the day, the goal for me Is to deploy it and release it so that I can analyze its impact on on anything impact on my revenue or impact on trees planted. If you're any one tree plant, whatever it may be the understanding of building you know, KPI metrics, I mean trying to achieve them, see how close you are fine tuning, adjusting, reiterating, and going after it again, to me, basically hone your craft like, that's where I found myself to be very, very rewarding feeling in the product space. I no longer feel under educated or under experience. Unknown Speaker 25:39 Okay, interesting. So, you're a very prominent member of the Product Hunt community. And there was just a product meetup in New York and you hosted that correct? Unknown Speaker 25:52 Yes, I did. I did. Unknown Speaker 25:55 How'd that go? Unknown Speaker 25:57 I gotta say that was fun. I'll start off with your question about Yes, I am a prominent member, I guess you could say in the production community. I think that prominence comes very much so from just my wrong pure interest. I am not always intentional intentionally reaching out to or sharing other people's products for them. It's most of the time. me saying like, maybe I just need to remember this, right? Or, I know this this guy, or girl who's building this knows what it feels like when someone else that's never spoken to before, has retweeted or shared their product. Now their thoughts and their words, Twitter to the tech world's a much different place than it is to everyone else. Right. Like, it's your it's your life being in some sense, like, if you tweet out, you know your link and it's corrupted. You know, you may not be getting more you know, in views that site so like when I know when you put me out in You have random on a network, right? People that are not even connected to others viewers finding your product, it means you've obviously started doing something correct, right? You're getting some sense of virality on its own. That's what I loved about the project. When I started out in there, I didn't really know anyone, right? It was me, it was just an endless array of everything I didn't know, was me over the past X ray years. And then when you get into a point where you've not seen all that exists, and you're building new tools, I always ask this question. If you're a product manager, and you're building a social platform, right, whether it be you know, funded or not, Unknown Speaker 27:45 someone like a Facebook releases. Let's take back 1015 years, whatever 12 years it was the Open Graph. Do you think if you were not paying attention as a product or like designer product Product evangelist, product discovery manager like that that graph was going to lay all the groundwork for relationship, right? The sentiment of that how to 1234 plus people are connected, right there. That's that's the entirety of a social network is built on a map. It's mathematical, right? When we search directory searching for other users that might have had the same first letter name. We weren't getting anywhere, right? That's why that whole social, didn't feel fun. Social feels fun today because any of us can create anything, invite each other in and we're still keeping our communities of users by by showing each other what we've made. Not. Hey, Mark Zuckerberg made this thing called Facebook. You want to join me in messenger on it different than saying, you know, I just made such like, I can do anything in any application. You want. Or you can shout out a, let's say mojica right or or Danielle and James, I love Leave me alone. Like for them for me to be able to say for like people I know have made a baby that effort and that progress in putting that a patient out. I don't necessarily frightening but I certainly your devotion to not leaving that product, right. That's the community that I'm talking about. Like that's not buying in a quick coat light. That's support. That's exactly what you look for in a community of like minded individuals, right? So I think that's really what brought me out of my shell to realize like, go for it. Be yourself. Go work in communities go reach out to the part time users right. Start talking to some of them. Just tweet, right. Who cares if they don't answer you, right? You're just all you're doing is stating your opinion and like the thing or if you're smart about what you had said, we're intelligent in your field. People are gonna pick up on me I follow you, Alex and someone retweets you that I find to be brilliant, right? I'm now looking at you and both of you in another light. So I think that Twitter, like, you know, and capturing this social witness, you can. From there. I'm getting yourself seen, but not advertising yourself. Because it comes tricky here I mean, but I like to take it from a different angle, which I want to touch on leader instead of selling or support angle. I think it allows for just as much growth and learning, but a way stronger. Now, I'll touch on that in a few moments. I just wanted to also like take a few minutes to thank everyone that was involved with the project. meet up with me. Eric is learning from bubble provided space. He was great help, and we're gonna sponsor public calm with free dollars worth of stock ticker. That was really nice you guys and owl from Kota. It's been a super, super, super helpful resource as well. If any of you are out there from New York, we have a product New York meetup event series that we're going to be continuing to go on with. And I will definitely after this have an Alex, you got a link to that. And you guys are interested in seeing future events. Unknown Speaker 31:27 All right. Um, Unknown Speaker 31:30 is that it? Did I miss anything? Unknown Speaker 31:32 I don't think you missed anything. I was gonna elaborate a little bit and actually how the event went. It was really cool. I don't know if you guys on your stack like that. Are you on? Unknown Speaker 31:42 I yeah, I just signed up. Unknown Speaker 31:44 Yesterday, actually. It's it's what are Unknown Speaker 31:48 your thoughts about that? Um, I think it's a little bear. But uh, they're gonna release more features. Unknown Speaker 31:55 Yeah, I can see the bear statement. Um, I think that It makes sense to a lot of people now why like you were able to see that it's going to exist but not see it yet is that it was probably more better, right? Some of us didn't see that. But it's going to take all of the net, the networking effect of what we're doing in these next few weeks. They're actually built, right. If it's not mapped yet that you and I like enough similar products, I wasn't gonna recommend you the right tool, right. So I think those experiences will grow and will become part of you innately part of the application with any social platform does. I think the value is that like, we all go and sit on hard to find things, find the people that made them, but there's no touch point in between to say, I want to discuss with the people that are also using these things, not in a forum board, but in the way we know how to communicate in a social, right. So right at the intersection, all of the missions and value that part adds With the valued principles, the users have brought the community, right. It's now a community network of the products people. Right? hope it doesn't detract from the whole core business. But to me, it's, it's fun. I was addicted to it for a few days. I'm like, Alright, yeah, I use that one too. I find myself like, wow, I gotta stop paying for some of these things, because I use way too many applications like, but um, yeah, I find one of those. One of those addicting things like uploading Unknown Speaker 33:32 that one, that one. So I, I find it to be fun, but I see what you're saying. Not many things you have to do. Unknown Speaker 33:40 Yeah, I feel like it's an extension of product time, because it's like, these are the products that people are releasing. And these are people's favorites products Unknown Speaker 33:50 that they show on your stuff. Unknown Speaker 33:53 Right. I think if you think if you leverage it in a sense like that doesn't compete with each other. Turns one more into the directory. And one more into like, let's do it this way. IMDb is a review engine, right? With a directory of everyone that's related to any of those movies. That directory can be very powerful if placed behind Netflix right now you see like when you're on Netflix and you scroll over it or you pause a movie you can see the food is that accurate and see all the other movies he's in that that was later on than what we used to go to IMDb. Right so ice, I can see a way in which growing down the road like Product Hunt is that place for categorical right like organized method methodical searching for products versus the networking effective partner products. Right like I know, firsthand, going through with some clients and when a product launch on product and killing me, right. And then you think you're off to the races Two weeks later. the only guy that's off to the races is the guy who's launching on Product Hunt today. Right? Where's your work? How you keeping that? That? Um, that man? How are you keeping that communication going? Are you just leveraging a big launch and hoping it hit that one time? Or are you building a community of people who you can get to become advocates of your product? Every day, right? That's where I see your staff growing into versus product, staying, just the hunting routine and releasing of your product. The next step is how we're going to all communicate and discuss about Unknown Speaker 35:33 right, it's a continuing conversation, Unknown Speaker 35:36 which I think that's the test the community it's Eric community, right? Like, I don't think building you know, like revenue first products is the move. You know, I mean, I think making sure you have things like your stack where people can leave the the money side where you see a sponsored post and go into just where their friends are. Right. That that's it makes it feel safe. Unknown Speaker 35:59 Yeah, definitely. So, you've been on the VC side, and you've been on the indie side. I was wondering if you had an opinion about a profit sharing agreements, like with earnest capital or indie VC? Unknown Speaker 36:16 I definitely do. I'm really glad you brought this up. Unknown Speaker 36:20 So that's the reason this topic is the reason why in many of my actual professional profiles, I have to and I am often asked about my fundraising experience, having raised Halfords, half a million dollars up to a million dollars over two rounds of funding. A it doesn't go to us so that's a myth a lie. You don't see a doubt. But it's it's giving me a, an avenue that everyone comes down to when they want to talk to me, right? I saw I saw you guys raised like, that's, that was the stigma. I think want to be told. And I'm going to keep names out. I'm going to do But he's handled, but it took two days into having a term sheet to realize exactly why this wasn't gonna work. Unknown Speaker 37:07 I'll tell you, I mean, like Unknown Speaker 37:10 spending $11,000, or $300,000, they give you to purchase their SEO tools that are worse than the product I use. And it's strictly a geckoboard accounted for $49 is a justification of them saying they want to harness your data to do what they want to do with it correct or not. There's no way they're not going to give the data guy they're investing the right to use that, but instead charge him to not do it. Right. They seem negative. That leads to so many other frustrations i can i can get into that are. We have your money, and now you've started to grow, because you knew you had the money. You're a sucker for the money. Right, like earnest cat, to be honest. I think. I mean, I know in dBc there's two in earnings captain. He has one of the strongest models in the sense that I read Speaking with a feeling that you, regardless of the amount you raise, and they're willing to back you with, you're not giving all right? Like, we don't know, when we go into a room and they say I want to raise 10 million, and then that a VC says, How quickly can you scale if we give you 100? Right? Be that kid in the room? You say no to 100 million dollars? Like almost never. Right? But we're coming to an age where we're a period where we're realizing that like, yeah, I'm gonna say no to that, because I can make 100 in two years, three years, I grow the right way. If I make 100 this year, I'm gonna lose 300 next year, right? Like I there's no way I could scale it 100 times as fast as I ever was. And see. There's no bandwidth. So for me, it's not about which is the Better Business at all right. Like you said, you were in the VC space. You're in the income share space. I wasn't in the space. I felt With going through and trying to work with and raise money from both sides, and I walk in, and it's funny, you think it should be an insult when they're like, I'll give you like 50 grand, and we'll review we'll renew again, like, we'll revisit it again, six weeks, like, grand like they want to raise for me, they want to give us $4 million. And then you realize he's, they're doing that because they're going to help guide your growth of spent right. With too much money in your hands, you have too much ability to spend it incorrectly. So I think the way that they build and model themselves as well, if we're wrong, and we don't have to spend we won't take a percentage of the revenue because you didn't generate it. They lose. It's the only way to directly tie the incentive of the guy with more money to the guy with no money who's building right. It's an unfair paradigm we were the rich are going to definitely get richer, but the poor are now the capable, but getting less and less. So it's like Not even giving those who have done improving the chance. I don't think that that's healthy. I think we will see a shift. I don't think it's heading this way for it. I think the Spartans are going to realize, not just in an ethical standpoint, on their own internal financial standpoint, like, this doesn't work. I mean, it worked for a while when we could see hyper growth companies like Facebook, go from a $10 million valuation to 100 billion dollar company, publicly traded, and then grow that 10 times more next five years. That wasn't around, you didn't have that much potential, but you needed to be the seed funder funding round of Hoover, because if you hit it once, your whole family set for